Home Forums Help/Technical Questions Pog 2 Questions and a Brief Review

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  • #78570
    jimcoates
    Member

    Hello. I’m new to the forum and to EHX products.

    On Monday I got a Pog2 that I had phone ordered from a company in Brooklyn called ProAudioStar, for $280. The unit arrived in less than pristine condition. The paint job is poor quality, with at least 3 dozen tiny specks of dust in the paint, and the white paint has the kind of orange peel texture you get from an amateur spray painting. The specks are mostly in the white with the majority on the bottom of the unit, but there are some minor flaws in the red also. The 4 screws in the bottom look odd too. A couple of them appear to be not perfectly round, and they all have irregular notches in the outside edge of the heads. The indentation that is shaped for a phillips screwdriver looks a little distorted, like someone had used a too small screwdriver and it slipped in the soft metal. The screws look like they were made from pot metal. I have seen a lot of screws in my job doing maintainence work but never any that looked as cheap as these.

    Question 1: Do EHX boxes normally have rough finishes and low quality screws, or is mine unusual? This is my first EHX purchase so I can’t compare it to other EHX products, but the finish on an inexpensive Digitech multi-effects case is a flawless finish that was obviously factory applied, because it is not something one could get from a spray can. On the other hand the finish on the Pog looks like it came straight out of a can of Rustoleum and was left to dry on a dirty table in a dusty room.

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    The unit that I received had apparently seen much handling. In addition to the specks in the paint, there are numerous minor scratches in the surface of the paint, not deep enough to show the metal of the case. There are also a few scuff marks, and a couple of small dings in the paint, indentations where something had hit the case hard enough to chip off some paint and leave two depressions that go down to the metal. It’s like it had been jabbed with two tines of a fork. I don’t think it was shipping damage because whatever made the dings would have had to penetrate the packaging, but the packaging was undamaged. I don’t mind the cosmetic condition considering the discounted price I paid, but it does raise questions.

    Question 2. ProAudioStar was selling the Pog2 before any of the companies I usually do business with even had them. Where did ProAudioStar get theirs? Were they prototypes, demos, used, b-stock, reconditioned, or something similar? It was odd doing business with them because they would not take my Visa but insisted that I pay with Paypal, which I now regret doing because I don’t have the protection of my credit card in the event that I decide to return the Pog and they claim that I did the cosmetic damage to it. My adult daughter was with me when it arrived and as I unpacked it I showed her the flaws in the finish.

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    I mainly play old singalong songs in finger style where I am usually making full chords and playing the melody at the same time, a variant of Travis style. I play on an Epiphone Emporer Regent jazz box with a single floating neck pickup, through a Fender Blues Jr, or for practice a Roland Cube 30. I wanted the Pog to add some variety by having an organ sound on a few songs. The problem I have run into is the tone of the upper octaves. Both of them sound the same, basically like an Irish tin whistle. It is a jaunty sound with a nautical air that works perfectly with a jig like Sailor’s Hornpipe, but it ruins anything serious like The Star Spangled Banner. I have tried not using the +2 octave at all, but the +1 octave sounds just the same albeit an octave lower. I can lower the volume of it with either the +octave slider or the LP filter, but it is such a strong tone that it overrides all other sounds no matter how low its volume. If I lower its volume below audibility then the overall sound is no longer that of an organ. It then sounds like a guitar with odd sounding bass notes. What I have found that sort of works is to lower the + octave until it is almost inaudible, where the Pog hardly seems to be having an effect, then run the signal through a rotary sim to make up for the lack of organ effect from the Pog. This works not only because the + octave is set so low, but also because the rotary effect changes the tone of the + octave to where it no longer sounds so much like a tin whistle. I don’t have a good rotary sim, just what is in some multi-effect units. If I keep the Pog it looks like I will have to buy a dedicated rotary effect box to make it work. The effects I do have are thin sounding, not at all a fat organ sound.

    Question 4. Is this the same experience other have with the Pog? I wonder if my unit is operating properly. From the look of the screws the unit might have been opened before I got it. Is there anything inside that could have been tampered with?

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    When I play a song like Take Me Out to the Ballgame in G, the melody comes out in that upper octave, but when I listen to a recording of the late Yankees organist Eddie Layton playing it on a Hammond, the melody is in the middle octave, and is very fat. This sound is not even remotely in the Pog, I suppose because it has organ-like sounds for only the upper and lower octaves.

    Question 5. Am I correct in assuming that it is just in the nature of the beast that one can’t get that rich Hammond middle octave sound from the Pog because it is not designed to affect the middle octave? If I try to play a melody mainly on the wound strings then I lose the organ sound, but when I go back to the b and e strings then it gets tin whistlely again.

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    My post is up against the character limit so I will continue in the reply.

    #99224
    jimcoates
    Member

    To finish up:

    I have spent the past week trying to tweak the Pog2 to get a few decent sounds but it is really hard. I can get a lot of variations of an organ with a tin whistle voicing, but haven’t found the other instrument sounds that I have read about. The closest I can get to a 12 string sound is something that sounds like a 12 string playing along with a tin whistle organ. I have tried using another guitar, a tele copy that I rarely use. It tends towards a harsher and shriller sound unless the tone knob is rolled off and the neck pickup is used. I have tried every effect I have, and most of them improve the sound, from choruses to delays, but the rotary sims work the best. I haven’t had much luck using distortions. All of this tweaking is discouraging, because in my experience with musical devices if I can’t find a good sound right off the bat then I probably never will. I don’t mean it is totally useless to me. I can use it with the rotary sim for Take Me Out to the Ballgame, Bicycle Built for Two, The Sidewalks of New York, and I can also get a thundering cathedrral sound for which I have no use. I do play a bunch of old time gospel songs like In the Sweet By and By. I wish I could get more of a chapel organ sound for those, and I would love to be able to get the Hammond middle octave sound. I can get “out there” sounds suitable for something like Being for the Benefit of Mister Kite, but I do not play any rock music when I play out, and rarely when at home. I might keep the Pog2 and buy a rotary pedal, but so far it seems pricey for the limited sounds I’ve been able to find that fit my kind of music.

    Thanks for any comments.

    #99264
    jimcoates
    Member

    There is another issue with the Pog 2 that I did not explore in my posts yesterday. I explained how I must set the + octaves to the lowest audible settings to get good results. Another bad thing that happens if I set the +octave to clearly audible levels is that I get artifacts in the signal. I don’t mean digital artifacts exactly. What happens is that as I remove a finger from the b or e strings, the pitch of the note goes slightly flat, almost inaudibly, but the Pog detects this and converts it into an audibly flat note. As a result, a piece of music will come out with an overall slightly off pitch or sour feel to it. This sound could work well in certain genres but not when one is trying for a clean organ sound. The off pitch sound combined with the tin whistle voicing produces a distinctly cheesey sound.

    It is most pronounced on the C note on the first fret of the b string. If I have to play that note while I am holding a chord, then immediately change chords for the next note, the c will change to a b note just as if I had done a pulloff from c to b. This happens whether I play the jazz box guitar or the tele. When I bypass the Pog 2 and listen just to the guitar, the false note is practically inaudible, but the Pog 2 detects it and makes it painfully audible. This just happens when I play the melody while making chords. If I am only playing melody runs sans chords then I can keep these artifacts in check much better.

    In the past I have owned two different Roland guitar synths and they had a similar problem. It relates to the fact that in guitar playing one is not just turning a note on and off like a keyboard does, but is making all kinds of other noises. When the device is too sensitive to these other noises then it converts them into unmusical tones. The guitar synths have adjustments that let one lessen the sensitivity to the noises, but the Pog 2 doesn’t seem to have anything to help with that problem.

    Question 6. I know that I won’t get many answers from Pog 2 owners as there are not many of us yet, but perhaps some original Pog owners can shed some light on this. Do you have a problem with sour notes, and have you found a way to eliminate them?

    Question 7. The warranty card says to mail it within 10 days. How firm is EHX about the time limit? It has already been 10 days since the unit was shipped, and I would like to get a rotary pedal to try with it before making the decision to keep it or not.

    #99285
    electro-melx
    Moderator

    wow…..ok, lets break this down into little chunks.

    Question 1: yeah, flaws in the paint jobs….I honestly don’t think it’s a priority for EHX or most musicians…. I think EHX like that hand painted/screened look. I think I do too actually.

    Part2 of Question 1: it does sound like yours has seen a bit of action to me though, you say you paid a ‘discounted price’ is there a chance it was an ex-demo unit or something….maybe?

    Question 2: I can’t comment on ProAudioStar because I’ve never heard of them…but i’m in the UK, so maybe someone else might be able to help there…. For a start look here to see if they are an official EHX dealer.

    http://www.ehx.com/dealers

    If you wanted to pay by Credit Card you could have done that through paypal, I have no idea why someone would rather you paid through paypal though, that’s kind of strange…most people would rather you didn’t because of the fees.

    I don’t own a pog, so I can’t answer the other stuff very well, but I’m sure someone who can will be along soon. Although I get the feeling you we hoping you could just plug this in and get ‘instant’ organ sounds… But the Pog is really a Polyphonic octave pedal that I think needs a bit of work with different settings and combinations with other pedals to probably get the sounds you are after….. I mean sure I’ve heard it make very good organ type sounds but that’s more a consequence of it being able to produce mutiple octaves rather than the pedal being an ‘organ sound effect’

    You say………

    “When I play a song like Take Me Out to the Ballgame in G, the melody comes out in that upper octave, but when I listen to a recording of the late Yankees organist Eddie Layton playing it on a Hammond, the melody is in the middle octave, and is very fat. This sound is not even remotely in the Pog”

    …and that is the problem …Eddie Layton IS playing it on a Hammond. The Pog2 is not a hammond organ simulater, never claimed to be and never will be…. it just creates polyphonic octaves which MAY help you get a similar sound on certain settings and possibly in conjunction with other effects.

    Bill Ruppert is the master of using effects to create guitar sounds that sound like other instuments I’d suggest checking out the effectology series of blogs for inspiration.

    http://www.ehx.com/blog/effectology-cello-concerto
    http://www.ehx.com/blog/effectology-blues-harmonica
    http://www.ehx.com/blog/effectology-dark-side-of-the-moon

    maybe you just need to spend a bit of time with the POG2 or maybe it just isn’t for you…. either way, feel free to ask whatever questions you like, if we miss any in your original post just repeat them and we’ll see what we can do. There are planty of users, admin and EHX staff that will try to help.

    #99398
    jimcoates
    Member

    Thank you for responding. The list of dealers in New York does not show Proaudiostar, but that company does claim to be an official dealer, as in their listing for the POG 2:
    “Electro-Harmonix POG 2 pog2 IN STOCK OFFICIAL DEALER”

    I don’t mind the poor finish either, but just wondered if it is normal to find dozens of specks of dust in the paint. My unit has a ridiculously bad paint job for a factory finish. A home hobbyist could have done better work.

    I don’t want to take up the community’s time with another long winded post about my expectations, etc., but yes I do expect to get organ tones out of a Pog, and mine does definitely sound like an organ. It is the tin whistle voicing of the organ that I am have a problem in finding much use for. After tweaking it for a week I am certain that I can’t change that voice.

    What I really need now is an answer to my question about the warranty card. Last night I ordered a Line 6 Roto Machine and paid for two day shipping, to see if it will help with the sound of the Pog particularly where it is lacking in the middle octave, but I am up against the 10 day limit on sending in the Pog’s warranty card. I need to know if I can safely wait another 4 days before sending in the card. I have e-mailed this question to ehx but I couldn’t find an official contact address so doubt if it went to the right place. It may well be that the Pog is not for me as you say, but I do want to try everything to make it work with my music and playing style before giving up on it. I have been playing for 40 years but started building up my current song set about 15 years ago when I started a singalong therapy program for Alzheimer’s. I am not a very good player so I practice quite a lot, and after so many years my sound is getting pretty stale to my ears and I am looking for some way to get a different sound now and then.

    Thanks again for taking the time to consider my questions.

    #99402
    electro-melx
    Moderator

    no problem, sorry I can’t help more…

    …but if you look here you will find all the contact details for ehx, including a phone number and address.

    http://www.ehx.com/about/contact

    as to the finish, I wouldn’t say it was normal, but without seeing it it’s hard to say, but even if I expect a less than flawless finish when I buy ehx, I wouldn’t expect chips, bashes and that sort of damage.

    as to the sound have you tried rolling back the guitars tone knob? that might help… I’ve read about people doing that with the POG.

    #99418
    julian
    Moderator

    Learning to use the Low Pass filter and the Q controls can work wonders on the EH units upper octaves.

    #99942
    jimcoates
    Member

    I have been wanting to continue this thread but have been too busy. I have been spray painting furniture for a customer for the last couple of weeks. Sometimes the paint will build up around the holes at the tip and if not cleaned off will spit tiny lumps onto the painted surface. The paint job on my former POG2 might have those kinds of particles rather than dust specks.

    I did get the Line 6 Roto Machine and it improved the sound tremendously, not just by adding to the illusion of an organ with the rotary effect, but by making the POG2 sound less like a tin whistle. It is the only thing I found that could disguise the POG2’s voicing. Turning down the guitar’s treble reduces the brightness or screechy-ness, as does lowering the low pass slider (thank you for those suggestions), but those things don’t alter the voicing, nor does using eq. Julian, on my POG2 the Q control had no effect on the upper octave, just the lower ones.

    Anyway, even with the Rotomachine the overall sound was sour when working with chords. By turning off the Rotomachine and turning down the guitar in the mix, just listening to the POG2, there is a lot of dissonance when running through chord changes, particularly on complex chords. I tried the same experiment on the pitch shifter effect in a multi-effects pedal and got the same result, so I guess it just typical of that type of effect. Then with the guitar and Rotomachine enabled again, most of that is masked but sometimes still sounds sour to my ears.

    The results were better when playing single note lines. I had a blast playing the melody of Sousa’s Washington Post march. The tin whistle voicing was a positive for that piece. The overall sound was that of an organ emulating a marching band complete with piccolos. Much more fun than playing the same notes with a plain guitar sound.

    It was hard to decide to send it back because it was fun for some things, but too many negatives: the high price, needing other pedals (I would also need an eq, a signal splitter, and a pedal board to be able to play out with it), the sour sound, and the lack of variety in the sounds in it that worked with my music. Electro-melx, I appreciate better now your remarks earlier. Apparently this is about sound shaping, which I didn’t realize before, and requires a lot more equipment than I have to make it work. Next I am going to try a Roland GR-20 guitar synthesizer. The last one I had was the earlier model, GR-33 which I did not use very much, but at that time I had not yet developed the set of fingerstyle arrangements that I usually play now.

    Thank you for your help. Maybe this thread will help someone else looking to the POG for getting organ sounds when playing fingerstyle with complex chording. The retailers market the POG’s as “you can get rid of your organ player”, but it is not as simple as that, is it?

    #99948
    julian
    Moderator

    The Q control you need to use in conjunction with the Low Pass Filter slider. The lower you set it, the more it calms down the upper frequencies.

    I think one thing to keep in mind when playing chords is that complex chords tend to have dissonance. When you do that same chord at a higher pitch, the sound of any dissonant beats are going to be more intense. When you do it multi-octave, it can be very intense. In other words, some chords just don’t sound good polyphonic.

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